The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries !

• 06-15-2009 5:42 PM

  Melanie Livingston Joined on 06-15-2009 Posts 53

  The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries ! Reply Contact Why, oh why, oh....... I can't be bothered to continue with that one, but how is it that almost every delivery I have taken in this season ( from nurseries large & small, great and good) contains some really bad plants. Am I being singled out for some special treatment or something ? Plums with shothole, apples with scab, purple sage with mildew aphids and froghoppers, Polygala with botrytis, Phormiums with RSM, Heuchera so small they still look like plugs in a 2lt pot, Cordylines as wobbly as a drunk on a Friday night, chocolate cosmos with wierd spots, water plants with vine weavil sat there waving at me ! With the increase in transport costs and the need to be lean what is the point in ferrying rubbish around the country ? I shall report back on a regular basis with my "Worst of the Week" without mentioning any names as that would probably be unhelpful.

• 06-16-2009 5:06 PM

  In reply to

  Lee Melady Joined on 09-24-2008 Posts 3

  Re: The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries ! Reply Contact Most of the problems you face I think are primarily down to lack of knowledge within the industry. PAD indentification is seldomly used on incoming stock as the need to turn orders around quickly is priority. As a nursery we do check items thoroughly before they are sent, but occasionally things do slip through the net, not intentional I might add. More and more nurseries are finding it difficult to find qualified staff to address these types of problems. I know from my own experience that most new recruits know very little about PAD and look at you in amazement if you point certain things out to them (did you notice those purple beech are covered in wooly aphid for example) I sympathise with your plight and certainly feel this is a problem that can be fixed but until we resolve the lack of knowledge within the industry then it is inevitable problems like this will still annoy the hell out of us. You do right to whinge, but as you say most, if not all suppliers are blighted with the same problems so there is a 'theme' running there somewhere.

• 06-16-2009 10:40 PM

  In reply to

  Melanie Livingston Joined on 06-15-2009 Posts 53

  Re: The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries ! Reply Contact Whilst I agree that finding affordable, qualified and experienced staff is difficult there is no reason why affordable, unqualified and unexperienced staff cannot be trained. I would maintain that it makes better business sense for a Nursery Manager to spend 30mins a week training staff on P&D id and quality control than spending 30mins a week dealing with fed up and disapointed customers and crediting returned goods. I do not agree that there is a lack of knowledge within the industry, it is there, it is just that too many people hold on to it too tight. They recognise that they have the knowledge but they are too busy to share it with the staff who actually make the difference to the end customer. Whilst it is important that Managers share information amongst their peer group, it is vital that information and knowledge is passed on to the people who can make the best use of it, most often, for the benefit of the bottom line. We can all take responsibility individually for training staff without the aid of an industry wide programme. Getting the right product, to the right place, at the right time, in good order adds value to your product. Thirty minutes a week spent training staff adds value to your product, thirty minutes a week spent dealing with fed up customers just adds to your stress levels !

• 06-17-2009 8:43 AM

  In reply to

  Lee Melady Joined on 09-24-2008 Posts 3

  Re: The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries ! Reply Contact Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with the points raised in your reply I think you have to realise that new recruits need the 'desire' to learn from their peers. Desire I am afraid to say that only resides in the very very few. We have employed upwards of 20 staff in the last two years, either temp or full time. Most if not all have enjoyed a college education with horticulture. Each of the individuals showed either no desire to learn or in fact no basic people skills to have the fortitude to ask a simple basic question. They infact would stand idlely by and not show any form of initiative. These were not young people they were late 20s or older. For peers to show desire to teach first you should have pupils willing to listen and learn.

• 06-22-2009 1:21 PM

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  Melanie Livingston Joined on 06-15-2009 Posts 53

  Re: The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries ! Reply Contact This problem happens in many industries, I have come to the conclusion that, however much delegation is a key part of management, there is little point in an extra pair of hands if the brain is not attached ! If the training given is not taken on board and then used in the course of your work, then sorry you don't get to keep that job or the pay grade, how would we be if nurses and doctors didn't keep up ! Anyway, back to my deliveries this week, we didn't have many, and I have to say we had a 99% result. We had a delivery that contained 2 sets of five fuchsias, four out of each set were OK but as usual, 1 of each set looked like it had been kicked around despatch ! No, they had not fallen off the trolley, they were nicely hidden in the middle of the shelf, thankyou kindly! As for my delivery of roses this week, they were clean, well branched and budded, maybe not as fab as I have seen them produced in the past, but good value for the customer. Ta. Has anyone come upon an Embothrium worth selling ? We are surrounded by several beautiful specimens in this area, and each year we are asked to supply about 5 or 6 to our customers, we have tried buying them in, but most of the time they are very weak and if we have any left they seldom come through the Winter looking like a saleable option. Lets see how my deliveries stack up this week.

• 06-25-2009 6:56 PM

  In reply to

  Nick Steele Joined on 09-02-2008 Posts 1

  Re: The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries ! Reply Contact  I'm afraid horticulture is stuck in the dark ages as far as quality control is concerned - decades ago manufacturing industry ued to work on "acceptable quality levels" saying things like "95% within spec is okay" - which of course meant 5 parts in 100 went straight in the reject bin.    Barmey.  Now of course, thanks often to the influence of Japanese manufacturers who taught us that we didn't need to accept  5% rejected parts, engineers expect 100% within spec.  Horticulture seems strangely stuck in that mid 20th century world where if we order a dozen, we can reasonably expect 10 or 11 good ones, plus a runt.  Its up to the buyers to keep up the pressure on the suppliers  until they come to terms with the modern world where an order for 100, means 100.

• 06-27-2009 8:48 PM

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  Ben Probert Joined on 01-31-2009 Posts 14

  Re: The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries ! Reply Contact I have seen many lousy plants sent out by nurseries in my all too short time so far in the trade, and every time they are sent out by nurseries who assume you will accept any crap they've got lying around. Our customers won't accept rubbish, so neither should we!!! Send unacceptable plants back. The skills shortage is a massive problem in nurseries. I have no formal training- instead I have tought myself and worked hard to gain practical skills. I then look at many horticultural students and their reactions to elements of the job- doesn't matter what you do in this trade, from manager to casual labour if you turn your nose up at pulling weeds out of pots then you're in the wrong job! This is especially important with cutbacks affecting the industry- we all have to muck in to keep pressure on P&Ds and quality control. The 'older generation' as it were are right to dispair with my generation. So many are joining this profession (replacing people who are retiring) but not wanting to get their hands dirty, and many have their favorite jobs but aren't willing to engage in other things- multi-talented young gardeners and nurserypeople who will engage with all elements of the job are sadly too rare. There seems to be a 'don't care' attitude developing in some nurseries- anything will do. This is not acceptable in the 21st century. There are some of us who do work hard to learn the ropes. One frustration I have is the automatic promotion of older newcomers to the industry over younger and yet more experienced staff! A young person who understands their job and is competant is more of an asset to you than an older newly trained person. Problem is that someone who has changed profession in, say, their 50s will not be willing to start from the bottom of the ladder. I appeal to managers, team leaders, supervisors and business owners to look carefully at the team and to nurture any young members who are enthusiastic and capable. After all if someone who is older automatically gets favoured what incentive is there for young people to make the effort! It's only when we all accept where skills gaps exist and then all work together to plug it that buyers and sellers will be able to get on for the benefit of everyone.

• 06-29-2009 1:39 PM

  In reply to

  Melanie Livingston Joined on 06-15-2009 Posts 53

  Re: The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries ! Reply Contact Well said Ben ! I have not spent the whole of my working life as a "Horticultural Hard Bird" and have worked as a manager and buyer in other types of retail business. I have never been prepared, as a matter of course, to re-sell shoddy products and I'm not going to start now ! My deliveries this week contained a whole shelf of Crocosmia with spots and no flower spikes, 3 gailardias that hadn't seen water at some point and were heading backwards fast, and when I order 36 trays of mixed plants, don't try shoving on some extras in the hope that I won't notice and just sign for them. As for the rose delivery this week, since when have ground cover roses been "Patio Style", lovely though they were, the duel labelling is confusing for the customer. A confused customer, when not supported by a member of staff, is less likely to open their wallet !

• 06-29-2009 9:29 PM

  In reply to

  Ben Probert Joined on 01-31-2009 Posts 14

  Re: The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries ! Reply Contact So your Crocosmias were diseased and your plants hadn't been watered- neither is acceptable on any level! There are nurseries failing on the basics... not right. I maintain that it's a result of a lack of comitted horticultural staff! Labelling is another major issue- can we standardise things like Roses into catagories to make life easier for customers without harming attempts to merchandise? Merchandising is key to how we sell, but if it ends up costing companies more to employ staff to interpret merchandising it kinda defeats the point! What can we do?

• 06-30-2009 10:19 PM

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  A Grower Joined on 02-03-2009 Posts 12

  Re: The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries ! Reply Contact Whilst in now way defending poor quality plants from Uk or overseas, please consider the following before jumping on the soapbox:  a) To keep transport costs down,  many nurseries now rely on third party hauliers and consolidators. Smaller deliveries, needed more frequently have driven things this way. this often adds 24 or 48 hours onto deliveries, Overlay that with polite requests for No Friday deliveries; or please book in, you have very short weekly delivery windows now. b) basic skills - whilst i am sure not the case here from some of the names, i have been to too many growers meetings recently where the sole topic of discussion over a pint is the chronic de-skilling of garden centre buyers. Don't know what they are buying; when they are buying it; bad planning and demand forecasting, unrealistic service demands, cancelled apppintments etc. Why do you need to request samples be driven half-way round the Uk when they will never take a duff one !!! c) Reserve orders -  . Many garden centre buyers simply cut or did not place reserves, yet expect growers to have 100% avaialbility of top grade plants at their risk, just in case the phone rings. This season's weather, from both a growing and sales planning viewpoint has been challenging  What reserves will you place next season now - more difficult to forecast now than last year.  d) Costs of dealing with garden centres - many growers are seriously considering the vaibility of supplying garden centres. Smaller drops, more frequently may be the Just in Time mantra, but it costs more than is being recovered in prices. Sales per Representative are falling across the Uk as rep after rep traipses their territory week after week, often bumping in to competitors on the way. The mulitples seem to manage the supply chain much better - plan, reserve, manage reserve if sales deviate, pay (even if on 90 days). Many GC's have been a credit risk and in October 2008. we were still owed 37% of April and 48% of May's garden centre sales!!!!!!! We can only progress if all parties communicate up and down the supply chain - new technology makes this easier. Understand each others constraints, issues etc. Share risks - and rewards. Seek to save costs neither party hs to bear, not create more.  I doubt any grower deliberately sent small./dry/P&D infested plants, but when margins are squeezed, service level needs (Order Tuesday;  "No Friday deliveries please", "I can get one trolley from the Dutch" etc) are tight, what you received was probably the best the Eastern Europeans in the dispatch shed could do at 2 o'Clock in the morning.in what is now effectively as 3 day a week delivery window It's a much bigger picture than just skills and training - there has to be a better way, as what is there now is not working for either party. Discuss!!!!!!

• 07-02-2009 10:02 PM

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  Melanie Livingston Joined on 06-15-2009 Posts 53

  Re: The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries ! Reply Contact Oh...what an apt name for someone in the horticultural trade. I have some thoughts on your points. a) Could the ordering, despatch and consolidation process be made more efficient ? All orders in to everyone including themselves in the system by a set time, despatched to the hub from the nursery by an agreed time, resorted where necessary onto the minimum quantity of shelves and then sent out. The garden centres should pay a premium for no Friday deliveries, or having to be booked in. I would have to do this for any other fast courier delivery. Sure this is a long term prospect, but efficiency of any kind can bring costs down. b) Yup, agree with that one, any buying of any product requires knowledge and skill. The onus is on the individual garden centre to get the timing and quantities right according to the space available to display and keep it and customer demand. c)Reserve orders, why ? If the nursery can provide a comprehensive list of the plants they intend to supply, followed by a regularly updated availability list, then it is up to the garden centre to place a timely order, if the nursery has run out before the garden centre gets it's act together, tough. If the nursery has an over supply, that is what the sales team is for. Share the risk ? Pay a deposit on reserves ? d) Perhaps the industry should address the minimum drop and "Just in Time" buying principle, perhaps the garden centres should be paying for this privilege, more skilled buyers get better prices ? Communication must be the key and personal visits from sales reps do make a difference, meeting reps at shows makes a difference, maybe the industry should be addressing the frequency of sales site visits as opposed to other forms of communication. Skype anyone ? Rubbish plants in my delivery are not solely the product of an inefficient order despatch system, if a regularly updated availability list says that a particular line is in a fit condition for sale, then I have to believe it. When my order is confirmed, I have to trust that what is coming is fit for sale, and is as good as anyone else is getting. I would rather be told that only half of what was ordered was coming, and be asked if I would take more of something that is seasonally appropriate and looking good to fill the trolley. If you can't get it to me by Friday, then I will have to wait, and jolly up something else to keep my sales up for the weekend, that's part of my job, but I can't make a silk purse etc... In conclusion, I had several deliveries this week, maybe only 25 shelves, but only 2 duff plants and some rsm free Phormiums, Hurrah ! Anything is possible, even in this heat.

• 07-03-2009 8:47 AM

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  A Grower Joined on 02-03-2009 Posts 12

  Re: The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries ! Reply Contact Melanie I fully agree with many of your comments - several refer back to having to pay for the extra costs, which i find very refereshing. The whole crux of the pricing discussions is recovering the real costs of service. The delivered price of a plant can vary by more than 30% when all extra costs are added on. We have been discussing a kind of Ryanair pricing model - basic plant price X, plus surcharges for bespoke lablleing; 48 hour delivery; late order closure and small delivery drops, then with  discounts for orders placed 3 or 6 months in advance; more than 5 trolley drop, evening deliveries, payment in 30 days. One area where the mutiples will help the garden centre industry is by leading very slim, fast and effective supply chain systems - supplier led re-stocking to pre-agreed levels; 24/7 deliveries at standard times; EDI ordering and invoicing; agreed specs for all plants supplied; clear payment terms and rebates (whether you agree with them or not, they are adhered to!).  Reserves is a tricky subject. For shorter term crops, reserves have formed the basis of production planning - if it's not sold, it will not get grown. For longer term products, it identifies at an early stage over/under-sells so following production plans can be altered. Howver, reserves have become diluted down as no more than a "loose intention to purchase (if weather suits)", and are losing their value to growers as a planning tool, and i suspect losing value to retailers as well if there is no financial incentive.  I start from the basis that (until this sunny season) most growers and retailers were under severe margin pressure in live plants - it's not working for either party, so  . .  there has to be a better way!!!!

• 07-03-2009 11:35 PM

  In reply to

  Melanie Livingston Joined on 06-15-2009 Posts 53

  Re: The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries ! Reply Contact Discovering as well as recovering the real cost of service, would be a start. The Ryanair pricing model is a very interesting idea, you see what you get and you get what you pay for. Well OK, I could be up for using an ordering system like that, the system ( spreadsheets, database etc) would have to be simple and uniform across at least the majority of the suppliers that I use, I frankly couldn't be bothered to have to weigh up all those options either on the phone or on sheets of paper, it would be too groanworthy !   As for a slim, fast and effective supply chain system, you tell me (accurately) what you've got, I tell you what I want (quickly) , you send it to me (in good order) and we will pay for it in the agreed time. In all its' simplicity this system already exists but it has been tweaked and abused into a nonsense by all parties trying to pass the risk on and hold the profit margin back.   I cannot imagine supplier led re-stocking working on a plant area in a stand alone garden centre, there would be no tangible benefit. I don't have an epos system to use for re-ordering, it is pointless, I can go and look on the plant area to see what I've got and contact a supplier to re-order.   24/7 deliveries, now there is a thought, deliver to me in the dead of night so that I can't spot the rsm on the Phormiums, cunning plan ! Seven days a week is theoretically not a problem for us, we have full time members of staff on duty 7 days a week who can take in a delivery and look after it, it is the 24hours bit that worries me ! Obviously as a retailer, the staff are on duty while the centre is open to the public, unlike manufacturing when the staff are on duty when there is work to be done. If a supplier says that they will always deliver at 7pm on a Sunday evening, then I can alter my working schedule to accommodate this, but they would have to be consistent.   What about operating banded retrospective discounts, if I order and pay for a certain amount in a specified time I receive a cheque back from the Supplier as a discount, just like Tesco Club Card, or any customer loyalty scheme. It would be up to each individual nursery to sort out their discount band ( 10k-20k gets you 2%, 20k-30k gets you5% ) you can use it as a sales tool. Maybe if the garden centres used a new standardised Ryanair ordering system they get extra retro discount ? This is not a new idea, it works very well in other industries both from manufacturer to retailer, and retailer to consumer.    If the supermarkets can collect all their spuds from all over Europe and beyond, and redistribute them all back again via retailers to consumers before they go rotten, how is it that the horticultural industry has such problems ?

• 07-05-2009 10:26 PM

  In reply to

  Tony Lane Joined on 07-05-2009 Posts 1

  Re: The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries ! Reply Contact I got a few very nice examples of Embothrium cocineum from Tony at Davenham Nurseries in Cheshire last year and sold the last one just a few weeks ago. They overwintered successfully under my Plantarea canopy  in Nottinghamshire and, as I have heard nothing to the contrary, I must assume have all transplanted successfully into my customers gardens!

• 07-06-2009 10:57 AM

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  Melanie Livingston Joined on 06-15-2009 Posts 53	Re: The Plant Area Managers Whinge about Nurseries ! Reply Contact Thanks Tony, I have taken note, and  will try and contact them.